Check out our New Equity System Pack

Traders' Roundtable
A forum for mechanical system traders.

Author Message
Trading Leech
Senior Member

Joined: 29 Nov 2010
Posts: 48

Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:46 pm    Post subject: Question from Vince's "The Mathematics of Money Managem

Please take a look at page 3 in Vince's "The Mathematics of Money Management" (1992).

How does he obtain this graph? I have tried to reproduce it using the following C code, but I get some erroneous and totally different results. What am I doing wrong?

 Code: #include #include #include int main (int argc, const char * argv[]) {   const int fractionFineness = 20; //f interval fineness     printf("f          TWR\n");   printf("--------------\n");     for (int i=0; i<=fractionFineness; i++)   {     double f = 1.0/fractionFineness*i;     const int numberOfBets = 40; //as in the book         double startingCapital = 1.0; //doesn't matter for final result         int numberOfSimulations = 100000; //Monte Carlo     double expectedFinalCapital = 0;         for (int _c=0; _c=0 && r<=1);         if (r<0.5) //tails           currentCapital -= 1.0*betSize;         else //heads           currentCapital += 2.0*betSize;       }             expectedFinalCapital += currentCapital/numberOfSimulations;     }         printf("%f %f\n", f, expectedFinalCapital/startingCapital);   }     return 0; }

These are my results. Totally out of whack, as you can see:

 Code: f          TWR -------------- 0.000000 1.000000 0.050000 2.681272 0.100000 7.033180 0.150000 18.041265 0.200000 45.286080 0.250000 116.339518 0.300000 254.900325 0.350000 619.910976 0.400000 1315.125641 0.450000 4145.293687 0.500000 6106.482120 0.550000 17338.963085 0.600000 33052.989488 0.650000 50256.643405 0.700000 515449.227614 0.750000 13816.685338 0.800000 34357.379275 0.850000 54704.916534 0.900000 464443.893644 0.950000 47729.574970 1.000000 0.000000
stopsareforwimps
Roundtable Knight

Joined: 09 Oct 2010
Posts: 199
Location: Melbourne Australia

Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 10:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Question from Vince's "The Mathematics of Money Man

 Trading Leech wrote: Please take a look at page 3 in Vince's "The Mathematics of Money Management" (1992). How does he obtain this graph? I have tried to reproduce it using the following C code, but I get some erroneous and totally different results. What am I doing wrong?...

I don't have that book but...

You need to be clear what you are trying to calculate. You seem to be computing something like the arithmetic average of the various returns over the 40 bets.

You probably should be taking the geometric means if you want to know expected compound return rate (multiply the end results together and take the 40th root of the result). Another way to get an 'expected' return is to compute the median return. This is more likely to be typical than the arithmetic average, which will be polluted by a few unrepresentative and massive returns.

I did the geometric mean and the 0.25 best bet is confirmed in that case. You need to be careful of floating underflow and overflow.

Median worked OK too.
sluggo
Roundtable Knight

Joined: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 2932

Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:02 am    Post subject:

This line of code has got a bug

 Code: expectedFinalCapital += currentCapital/numberOfSimulations;

Make three or four copies of your program and give them different names. Then edit each program, to make it calculate the average of your 10000 MC sim results, a different way. Run all four of these programs. The one which tells you that max(TWR) occurs at f=0.25, is the one to study further.

Tim Arnold's all-purpose debugging advice applies here too: PRINT your intermediate calculations, so you can see which one is producing an unexpected ("wrong") result
Trading Leech
Senior Member

Joined: 29 Nov 2010
Posts: 48

Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:15 am    Post subject:

 sluggo wrote: This line of code has got a bug

I don't understand. This just look like regular MC to me. But I tried changing it to only
 Code: expectedFinalCapital += currentCapital;

and then dividing by "numberOfSimulations" at the end, but that (of course) yields the same result. I don't see why I'm averaging this incorrectly. It looks like the regular MC average to me...
sluggo
Roundtable Knight

Joined: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 2932

 Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:49 am    Post subject: PRINT your intermediate results. Study them and find "anomalies" Code and run four (not two) different ways of averaging the 10,000 monte carlo results. I will put a note on my calendar to check back here in 6 weeks' time, to learn whether you've fixed the problem(s). That ought to be plenty of time to perform LOTS of experiments, lots of do-overs (recode starting from a blank sheet of paper), and lots of intermediate-results checking. If you still haven't reported success, then sometime after Dec 16, 2011, I'll post a splash of (non-C++) code which computes the correct answer. Might be Blox source code, might be APL, might be a bash script, I'll decide later.
stopsareforwimps
Roundtable Knight

Joined: 09 Oct 2010
Posts: 199
Location: Melbourne Australia

Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:52 am    Post subject:

Trading Leech wrote:
 sluggo wrote: This line of code has got a bug

I don't understand. This just look like regular MC to me. But I tried changing it to only
 Code: expectedFinalCapital += currentCapital;

and then dividing by "numberOfSimulations" at the end, but that (of course) yields the same result. I don't see why I'm averaging this incorrectly. It looks like the regular MC average to me...

You have all the information that you need. Are you actually calculating expected compound return by averaging the total returns and averaging those? No, you are calculating something else. You are calculating the average total return. But surely they are the same thing...?

Here is my output (for copying into a csv file)

 Code: Median return by fraction 0.0,1.0, 0.05,2.411714024837409, 0.1,4.660957143849302, 0.15000000000000002,7.366234841925617, 0.2,9.646293093274938, 0.25,10.5450938424492, 0.30000000000000004,9.646293093274934, 0.35000000000000003,7.366234841925614, 0.4,4.6609571438493, 0.45,2.4117140248374085, 0.5,1.0, 0.55,0.3225790586242929, 0.6000000000000001,0.07756279363818937, 0.65,0.013059231100277797, 0.7000000000000001,0.001401683395356256, 0.75,0.00008271806125530277, 0.8,0.0000020896178655943026, 0.8500000000000001,0.00000001409614843505329, 0.9,0.000000000008773252460082304, 0.9500000000000001,0.00000000000000001687951814185192, 1.0,0.0, Average return by fraction 0.0,1.0, 0.05,2.689620828845793, 0.1,7.019904173179042, 0.15000000000000002,18.17310600582705, 0.2,45.1735701438515, 0.25,109.00395427810811, 0.30000000000000004,256.62123614633043, 0.35000000000000003,678.1590027337628, 0.4,1438.9059784666745, 0.45,4023.174355354776, 0.5,7441.689295331302, 0.55,6280.506453882783, 0.6000000000000001,20068.718869842516, 0.65,66440.0894274343, 0.7000000000000001,85263.83546308047, 0.75,107592.8607763377, 0.8,28827.51391077118, 0.8500000000000001,7456.689783143323, 0.9,1198.6683959993893, 0.9500000000000001,853.8264523099347, 1.0,0.0, Average compound return by fraction 0.0,1.0, 0.05,2.407877356842422, 0.1,4.679322978041792, 0.15000000000000002,7.353413875873102, 0.2,9.708735780823204, 0.25,10.452021040214635, 0.30000000000000004,9.538685406501083, 0.35000000000000003,7.425107657110994, 0.4,4.6450082686534335, 0.45,2.363674796718191, 0.5,0.9664051178746541, 0.55,0.32337510373011835, 0.6000000000000001,0.07656175486532302, 0.65,0.012500384462452531, 0.7000000000000001,0.001435696217457491, 0.75,0.00008464286342168247, 0.8,0.0000020984263921793466, 0.8500000000000001,0.000000014665951698520266, 0.9,0.000000000008849296898355004, 0.9500000000000001,0.000000000000000016774979568055827, 1.0,0.0,

Here is the code in lisp.

 Code: (defun csv-helper (output-stream format-argument colon-modifier-p at-modifier-p)   (declare (ignore colon-modifier-p at-modifier-p))   (typecase format-argument     (float (format output-stream "~F" format-argument))     (t (format output-stream "~S" format-argument)))) (defun csv-line (output-stream format-argument colon-modifier-p at-modifier-p)   (declare (ignore colon-modifier-p at-modifier-p))   (if (consp format-argument)       (format output-stream "~{~/csv-helper/,~}" format-argument)       (format output-stream "~/csv-helper/," format-argument))) (defun csv (list-of-items)   "Output a list of items in csv format. Each item can be one thing or a list and is printed on one line. Print floating point double precision without the trailing d0"   (format t "~&~{~/csv-line/~%~}" list-of-items)) (defun median (l)   (let ((ll (length l)))     (nth (truncate (/ ll 2)) (sort (copy-list l) #'<)))) (defun sum (list)   (reduce #'+ list)) (defun average (list)   (assert (> (length list) 0))   (/ (sum list) (length list))) (defun safe-log (x)   (if (not (plusp x))       -9999999       (log x))) (defun avglog (list)   (average (mapcar #'safe-log list))) (defun invincible (function-to-apply-to-returns)   (let* ((finenesses 20)          (fineness-fraction (/ 1.0d0 finenesses))          (startcap 1.0d0)          (number-of-bets 40)          (number-of-simulations 100000))     (loop for i from 0 to finenesses by 1 collect          (let ((f (* fineness-fraction i)))            (list f (funcall function-to-apply-to-returns (loop for c from 1 by 1 to number-of-simulations collect                                                               (let ((capital startcap))                                                                 (loop for i from 1 to number-of-bets do                                                                      (let ((betsize (* capital f)))                                                                        (if (< (random 1.0d0) 0.5d0)                                                                            (decf capital (* betsize 1.0d0))                                                                            (incf capital (* betsize 2.0d0)))))                                                                 capital)))))))) (defun rr ()   (format t "~&Median return by fraction~%")   (csv (invincible #'median))   (format t "~&Average return by fraction~%")   (csv (invincible #'average))   (format t "~&Average compound return by fraction~%")   (csv (mapcar (lambda (el) (list (first el) (exp (second el)))) (invincible #'avglog))))
Ted Annemann
Roundtable Knight

Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 119
Location: Arizona

Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 8:24 am    Post subject:

US schools teach a course called "Algebra-1" to fifteen-year-old kids. This course covers the mathematics that helps you and other >15 year olds to recognize that in Ralph Vince's coin toss game,

TWR = { (1 + 2f)^Nheads } x { (1 - f)^Ntails }

where:
TWR is Vince's Terminal Wealth Relative
f is Vince's "divisor of the biggest perceived loss", i.e., the abscissa of his Figure 1-1
Nheads is the number of profitable coinflips
Ntails is the number of unprofitable coinflips
^ is the "raised to the power" operator, e.g., 2^3 = 8, 3^2 = 9, 4^3 = 64, etc

You can plot this expression and look for the maximum. You will find that it occurs at f = 0.25, just as Ralph Vince says. Example plots, and the Excel spreadsheets which generated them, are attached. I used Nheads=20 and Ntails=20, same as Vince's Fig 1-1.

However - can you use mathematics to solve for the exact position of the maximum, without needing to make a graph? Yes you can. In the US they teach this to final-year secondary school students (~17 years old) and/or first-year university students: Work out dTWR/df, set it equal to zero (since you seek the maximum), then solve for f. That's the location of the maximum.

twoplots.gif
Description:
 Plot of TWR vs f
Filesize:  23.28 KB
Viewed:  1874 Time(s)

rvince_plotz.xls
Description:
 Excel spreadsheet used to generate the plots above

Download
Filename:  rvince_plotz.xls
Filesize:  40 KB
Downloaded:  100 Time(s)

stopsareforwimps
Roundtable Knight

Joined: 09 Oct 2010
Posts: 199
Location: Melbourne Australia

Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 7:30 pm    Post subject:

 Ted Annemann wrote: US schools teach a course called "Algebra-1" to fifteen-year-old kids...

The coin toss is solvable via basic calculus because it is very simple. Other more complex distributions are not so easily solvable.

My reading of RV's use of this example is that he does it to give people an intuitive feel for the relationship between risk and expected compound returns. The key takeout is that while more risk increases average returns without bounds, after a while it costs you in expected compound returns due to volatility drag and risk of ruin.

Monte Carlo simulation is a good way to go in general because it is easy to apply to pretty well any distribution.

Some pitfalls:

The optimum bet size depends on the entire distribution. It is particularly sensitive to the most extreme tails of the distribution. If a given bet size could make you go bust, then in the very long term it will, and the expected compound return from such a bet size is -100%. The coin flip example does not have fat tails and does not demonstrate this problem and so it is somewhat misleading.

The optimum bet size depends on the distribution. This may seem to be an obvious point, but I have had at least two people tell me that "optimum bet size is 25%", period. One guy told me he had 25% of his net worth in each of 4 stocks, because 25% was the optimum bet size. Really.

Our information about the distribution of returns is incomplete. As Nassim Taleb has shown in the papers on his web site, we know very little or nothing about how fat the tails are, even assuming a stationary distribution of returns. We strongly suspect that the distributions are not stationary. But even if they were stationary, our ignorance of the fatness of the tails declines exponentially as we move further out. That is, as we move out into the domain of moves that could wipe us out the profundity of our ignorance explodes.

If you assume a normal or log-normal distribution of returns, then the problem is semi-containable. But with a non-normal levy distribution or other fat tailed distribution - such as those that exist in the real world of trading - our ignorance may well be fatal.

---

Vince's formulas (later on in his books) require input of a maximum loss as input to the optimum bet size calculation. We really don't know this number. Perhaps we can limit the maximum loss by using put options. Vince has some interesting arguments that this can allow you to achieve higher risk-weighted returns. My personal experience with using options for hedging is that the results may be underwhelming in terms of the precision of the hedge achieved.
sluggo
Roundtable Knight

Joined: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 2932

 Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:41 pm    Post subject: The use-algebra-and-make-a-plot approach, which requires neither calculus nor Monte Carlo simulation, can be applied to a wide range of distributions. Vince's coin-toss example employs a particularly simplistic distribution (the "binomial distribution"), which is a histogram having exactly two bars. Other distributions have histograms with more than two bars. (For example: a throw of two standard 6-sided dice has a distribution whose histogram includes eleven bars). Any histogram with a finite number of bars is amenable to the use-algebra-and-make-a-plot approach. This is comforting because a large number of real-world distributions can be very well approximated by histograms having "only" 2000 bars. You construct the histogram starting at -10 standard deviations, and build it upwards to +10 standard deviations, with a stepsize (histogram bin width) of 0.01 standard deviations. 20/0.01 = 2000 bins. So you can analyze a large number of real-world distributions without calculus. Also without Monte Carlo simulation. It's messy but far from impossible. Here's a fun little homework problem whose distribution histogram has got more than 2 bars. See whether you can find the optimal f (which maximizes TWR) without using Monte Carlo and without using calculus. Just algebra and a plot:A game is played with two standard decks of 52 cards each: the "Green Deck" and the "Yellow Deck". On each play, the bettor chooses a betsize for this play (call it "B dollars"), and each deck is thoroughly shuffled. The bettor draws one card from each deck. The bettor loses if neither of the drawn cards is a Spade, and he wins if one or both of the drawn cards is a Spade. Wins are paid off as follows. If both of the drawn cards are the Ace of Spades, he is paid off at 100-to-1. If one or both of the drawn cards is a face card (Jack, King, or Queen), he is paid off at 4-to-1. If neither of the drawn cards is a face card, he is paid off at 2-to-1. Summary: Zero spades means: lose. More than zero spades means: win. If win and no facecard, payoff 2x. If win and facecard, payoff 4x. If win and two Aces of Spades, payoff 100x. To illustrate, here are some example draws, and their payoffs 1. (7club, 9heart) lose B dollars 2. (7club, 9spade) win 2B dollars 3. (7spade, 9spade) win 2B dollars 4. (Jspade, Qspade) win 4B dollars 5. (Kheart, 3spade) win 4B dollars 6. (Aspade, Aspade) win 100B dollars 7. (Aspade, Aclub) win 2B dollars
Ted Annemann
Roundtable Knight

Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 119
Location: Arizona

 Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:02 am    Post subject: Try the "A2345 game": Bet B dollars, shuffle a deck of cards, draw 1 card. Look only at the card's value (disregard suit). Payoffs are:Ace wins B dollars 2 wins 2B dollars 3 wins 3B dollars 4 wins 4B dollars 5 wins 5B dollars any other card (6-10, J, Q, K) loses B dollarsThen return the card to the deck and shuffle again. The distribution is triangular shaped, which is delightful, and the optimal f is not even close to 0.25, which will annoy the people who tell stopsareforwimps that optimal-f is always equal to 0.25, in every situation, with no exceptions.
 Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First
 All times are GMT - 6 Hours Page 1 of 1

 Jump to: Select a forum General----------------How to Use these Forums - REQUIRED READINGQuestions and Suggestions for the ForumNews and AnnouncementsDiversions and Amusements Trading Psychology----------------Market PsychologyTrader Psychology Trading Systems----------------Testing and SimulationMoney ManagementTrend Indicators and Signals Newbie's Corner----------------Newbie to NewbieTotal Newbie Questions Learning to Trade----------------Books, Courses, and SeminarsQuestions and AnswersOn Becoming a Pro - The Business of TradingTrading for a Living - The Independent Trader Trading Blox™ Customer Support----------------Training and Tutorials Simulation and Testing Platforms; and Trading Software----------------Data Providers and other non testing software Brokers and Markets----------------StocksFutures MarketsBrokers
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You can edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You can attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum

Powered by phpBB 2.0.23 © 2001, 2008 phpBB Group