who gets what?

Discussions about brokerage firms for futures, stocks and other tradeable instruments.
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BARLI
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who gets what?

Post by BARLI » Tue May 23, 2006 2:25 am

Ok, I was wondering, when I make a trade and pay for it 13$ per side in pit traded futures, does it all go to my brokerage firm or something goes to the floor broker as well who actually sweats theer on the floor and buys/sells for me? Anyone knows anything about it?

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Post by AFJ Garner » Tue May 23, 2006 3:23 am

For one thing you are drastically over paying. I imagine that is not net either.

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Post by zz double » Tue May 23, 2006 6:55 am

Depends if the pit trader works for the broker or they use another company/local to fill the paper. Many brokers even big ones use other companies who specialise in certain contracts. Who do you use?

As AFJ says you are overpaying, you should be able to get around $5 rt regardless of size and a lot lower if you trade a decent amount.
For electronic markets you should be able to nail the price right down without compromising quality.

ZZ

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Post by BARLI » Tue May 23, 2006 8:59 pm

I trade through http://www.danielstrading.com/

and they clear through Man Financial now(used to be Refco before the firm went bankrupt). I dont trade a lot, I do around 10-15 rt a month trading grains/meats. Who do you use to trade zz?

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Post by zz double » Wed May 24, 2006 4:18 pm

Barli,

I use IB (Interactive Bokers) and a couple of others. IB take any size account and charge $5 rt without a size restriction, this goes down substantially if you have high monthly totals.

ZZ

BTW: I have no connection with IB, its just an example of what's out there.

BARLI
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Post by BARLI » Wed May 24, 2006 8:51 pm

5 $ rt that'd be 2.5 $ per side, Exchange fees are usually about 0.80-1.89 depending on the market.
http://www.tradestation.com/popups/fees ... ts/cme.htm

is 5$ round turn commissions includes all and its for the pit traded futures?

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Post by LeapFrog » Thu May 25, 2006 12:44 pm

$5 round turn all in on pit traded - you must be a decent sized hedge fund to get a rate like that trading tens of thousands of contracts per year.

My understanding is that closer to $12 rt all in is the current "retail" market. IB are currently charging $8 to $12 for pit trades and TradeStation charge about $14.50 rt for anyone who dares use their pit access platform. The very lowest rate I've ever heard of for a "retail" trader is between $8 and $10 rt all in and that is a very big large trader whose volume would exceed some hedge funds. To get lower than that I think you would have to own a seat and have employees in the pit working your trades like Cargill does.

Just my 2 cents. Others may know more than me about this.

Leapfrog.

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Post by BARLI » Thu May 25, 2006 3:42 pm

LeapFrog, thanks so much, what did you by
TradeStation charge about $14.50 rt for anyone who dares use their pit access platform.
is their platform for pit traded commodities is that bad? Have you had any experience with it? by the way, RedRock, or anyone, when you're on the floor leasing or have your own seat does it cost you anything to trade?

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Post by LeapFrog » Thu May 25, 2006 4:24 pm

BARLI wrote:LeapFrog, thanks so much, what did you by
TradeStation charge about $14.50 rt for anyone who dares use their pit access platform.
is their platform for pit traded commodities is that bad? Have you had any experience with it? by the way, RedRock, or anyone, when you're on the floor leasing or have your own seat does it cost you anything to trade?
TradeStation use RJO'Brien's MCD platform. They still use Version 3 and that version is a couple of years old. It is actually a very good platform and I liked using it. The problem I had with TradeStation was terrible desk support. Which amounted to almost no support and when you got through to them, they were very rude and would say things like "call back after trading hours" when you hadn't gotten filled on a market order after half an hour - just horrible. That was a couple of years ago. Based on the user forum, I think I might of been one of only a handful of TS customers using that platform to trade the pits through them. I've been through a bunch of other brokers since them and am currently using OpenEcry.com - I am happy with them although they have other issues which they are at least trying to fix. Their customer service is excellent.

Hope this answers your questions.

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Post by RedRock » Thu May 25, 2006 6:13 pm

BARLI wrote:by the way, RedRock, or anyone, when you're on the floor leasing or have your own seat does it cost you anything to trade?
Aside from the cost of the membership, we had member dues quarterly. These were somewhat heafty. Also exchange and clearing fees and whatever commission you worked out with your clearing partner. Unless you are a Monroe Trout, its difficult to justify being a member if you are trading globally and not in one pit every day fighting it out.

Conventions may have changed since my days...

I use IB for everything possible. Great rates! Professional platform! Serious market experience... Timberhill, (IB) was the first to put electronic hand helds in the s&p. They wrote the book.

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Post by BARLI » Fri May 26, 2006 1:03 am

LeapFrog, sounds like TradeStation is not the right firm to trade pit contracts through...RedRock how are fills with IB trading pit futures? altough the rate I pay is high fills always been great and confirmations are immidiate, the only problem with confirmation was with Sugar (had to wait 30 min to see that my order was filled at my Limit price) but my broker said its the same with all New York softs

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Post by RedRock » Fri May 26, 2006 1:23 am

BARLI wrote:...RedRock how are fills with IB trading pit futures? altough the rate I pay is high fills always been great and confirmations are immidiate, the only problem with confirmation was with Sugar (had to wait 30 min to see that my order was filled at my Limit price) but my broker said its the same with all New York softs
I use an old school broker for the pits. I would try IB in the pits, although they currently do not accept stops which I need. Only lmt and mkt. Floor access beyond indices is new for them. Im not sure if they have their own e broker in the pits or simply route thru Tops etc.

BARLI
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Post by BARLI » Fri May 26, 2006 2:23 am

thanks to everyone! I believe that such firms as Refco the Man Division, Man Financial and others simply match customers orders with their own when they trade so make it easier to have a good fill, espacially for those who trade small lots and of course no one on the floor would care to take that 1-2 lots. I'll call OpenEcry.com see what they offering.

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Post by AFJ Garner » Fri May 26, 2006 2:41 am

Barley
Take a look at www.manprofutures.com and ask them for a quote.
A

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Post by RedRock » Fri May 26, 2006 12:35 pm

BARLI wrote:thanks to everyone! I believe that such firms as Refco the Man Division, Man Financial and others simply match customers orders with their own when they trade so make it easier to have a good fill, espacially for those who trade small lots and of course no one on the floor would care to take that 1-2 lots. I'll call OpenEcry.com see what they offering.
Man is pretty good actually. Barli, look into www.randfutures.com Thats the firm that was started by Monroe Trout. They offer a branded version of Jtrader for electronic and pit access.

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Post by LeapFrog » Fri May 26, 2006 1:01 pm

RedRock wrote:
BARLI wrote:thanks to everyone! I believe that such firms as Refco the Man Division, Man Financial and others simply match customers orders with their own when they trade so make it easier to have a good fill, espacially for those who trade small lots and of course no one on the floor would care to take that 1-2 lots. I'll call OpenEcry.com see what they offering.
Man is pretty good actually. Barli, look into www.randfutures.com Thats the firm that was started by Monroe Trout. They offer a branded version of Jtrader for electronic and pit access.
RedRock, do you use Rand directly? They are who OpenEcry clear and who my trades go through. I am pretty happy with the fills I get overall.

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Post by RedRock » Fri May 26, 2006 2:31 pm

Hi LeapFrog,

No, I use Man. But I would switch to Rand in a heartbeat. The issue I had at the time. Several years ago, was Rand did not offer LME trading. That may well have changed by now. Man, clears a good chunk of volume at lme. fwtw.

My preference is always to go with the firms started by traders, whose needs were not met by the establishment. Rand is one of those. IB actually, is another. If one wants to micro manage your execution services. You could establish relationships with several brokers who specialize in market sectors. LBS Ltd Partnership in Chicago for example. If you want a group that knows the grains like the back of their hands... You need some experience and $$$ to make this worthwhile again.

I looked at ecry. They seem pretty solid. And you vouch for their service... But given the choice, I'd rather be a client of the clearing member directly, if possible. Call me old fashioned that way...

I have an established routine with man, and no complaints. So won’t switch at this time. But if I were shopping around... Rand (or Man) and IB are a pretty solid pair. Another smaller boutique broker for the electronic markets only, is Spike. They started clearing trades for locals in the S&Ps. And eventually opened a public division. If one is 'put off' by the customer service at IB. www.spiketrading.com may well be worth a look as well.

Perhaps Ecry is a good choice for both pits and electronic markets. Seems its difficult to find one broker who can do both E and Pit markets at the highest levels. Part of it comes down to preference in technology. I really love the IB traders workstation, for example. Personally, not so keen on pats system J-trader; or the R&N solutions.

Further. I enter and manage my own trades. So what I want is clear access, solid processing and accounting, and nothing more. No hand holding, free offers, advice, or system brokers. Mainline access drives my needs. Others may have other needs which make other brokers a better solution. First step I suppose would be to honestly assess ones needs. And work backwards from that point. Will one stop shop meet your needs? Or will dividing your account by specialty offer benefits?

Side note… I’m not shocked by what happened to Refco. I met some of the principals back in the 80s. Snakelike, ( in a Python sort of way) was my 'personal' impression. (yikes)

One last thought... The level of acess and pricepoints we as traders have today is truely amazing. Remember when a public broker was something like Lind, started by a nice guy, Barry Lind. The discount self directed accounts could be set up for a round trip price around $35.00 We have come a long way!b Full service comissions were 50 and up up up...

Signing off. Hoping for some sunshine to go boating :D and forget about trading for a few days.

Good weekend,
rr

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Post by LeapFrog » Fri May 26, 2006 2:40 pm

Thank you Redrock - all solid points - we're on the same wavelength. Have a good weekend.

BARLI
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Post by BARLI » Fri May 26, 2006 9:34 pm

thanks guys for a good and sincere advice, have a good weekend!

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